Website is DOWN

listBuilderUpdateHey guys,

A big pile of bad news now…

I was contacted by GW Legal. They requested that I remove the website and I did. It is their right and I must comply.

I was infringing on their IP with:

  • GW artwork (featured in the background of your website)
  • Photographs of GW’s painted miniatures (taken from the GW web store)
  • Legion logos/ iconography
  • Army points and stats for 40K units
  • The Warhammer 40,000 logo

Seeing all of these I feel lucky they didn’t actually sue me.

I didn’t actually remove the site but, as you can see, it is unusable – I am leaving it for now just for this news so you know what’s going on.

I cannot say I wasn’t expecting this. I really did use a lot of their data. But I have to say I just cannot use the new points without some kind of list builder. And using things like BattleScribe is total bullshit. Those lists are UGLY as hell.

I really hoped when GW contacted me it would be for some sort of collaboration. Not removal 😦

I want to thank all of you for all the gratitude and some of you really helped with the data.

If you think something can be done about this maybe you could all send emails to Games Workshop saying you really want this… There are 12 000 of you each day on here… It may make a difference.

I am so sad… 😦

Happy Wargaming,
Reepy

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47 comments on “Website is DOWN

  1. bassalien says:

    It was your Patreon that buttfucked you m8, you can’t profit from copyrighted assets without eventually getting whacked in the face with a C&D.

    Press F for listbuilder

    Like

  2. splendissimo says:

    Very sorry that you got this. GW would have been losing little to no money on this, in my view, and it is ridiculous that in 2017 we still have to use pen and paper. arseholes!

    Like

    • Yeah. You had to use the dataslates. But… I don’t know…

      Like

    • Unpopular Opinion #01 says:

      I mean, what’s wrong with using pen and paper? It’s a bit slower, sure, but all it takes is for you to work out what you own, perhaps some autotake units, write them all down in a notepad on a slow day, then just add up the units you want to use in a game – it’s not like it’s the end of the world.

      Still, a loss of time on your part, wertstammer – my condolences. Whilst I can absolutely see why GW filed a C&D, I think it would have been better for them to have endorsed you and made it official. Still, my apologies

      Like

      • When I prepare for a game day I select so many things. Tweaking. Moving stuff around. Making lists. That is NOT going to happen with pen and paper. I bet I am not the only one.

        Like

  3. Arthur Law says:

    And here I was thinking the new GW was different…. seems like the same litigious pack of pricks as always…. sorry to see the site go mate!

    Like

    • Thanks man. It’s probably just their legal department. They’re protecting their IP.

      Like

      • Arthur Law says:

        Yeah mate, I understand the need to protect their rights. I disagree with their legal department that they are actually protecting them. Personally, I think they are themselves doing it damage. You weren’t trying to compete with GW by ripping off their product, your only intention, as a hobbyist from what I can see is to support their game system by creating a tool for the rest of us to use in order to PLAY THEIR GAME… the damage done to their brand by their own legal teams interaction with the community here( for me atleast) far outstrips using some point values and pictures on a website! Don’t we all pay enough for their plastic men already?

        For me this is a missed opportunity for GW to engage with the community in a positive way, instead, they lawyered up! 😦

        I’ll be writing a nice long e-mail, followed up in paper form… that seems to at least get someone to read what’s written! xD

        Like

    • Wayniac says:

      Yep. “GW’s changed guys!” No it hasn’t. They had zero issue with Scrollbuilder doing this for AOS, in fact they put it on the community site. The images I kinda get, that’s what they did years ago when they had the online store embargo (and it wasn’t even correct, you can’t copyright images like that), but the rest is nonsense and shows that GW’s just really put on makeup, and really hasn’t changed.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. David Morris says:

    Is there no way you can host via torrent, so people can at least have a copy saved on their desktop?

    Would at least make all that effort not be wasted!

    Like

    • I can give it away but that makes me liable as I am still distributing it. I don’t want to get sued guys. If they don’t permit me this is staying dead. 😦

      Like

      • David Morris says:

        No its not, how would anyone know who put it on a torrent site? They wouldn’t, heck I saved the files before it was taken down, so I could effectively put it on there (although I haven’t got a clue how to put it on there, I just have all the files and webpage saved)

        Like

  5. Kjolnir says:

    Good ol’ GW strikes again. I’m leaving nastygrams for them all over social media. Their new game system is great, but the way points and wargear work now, it’s extremely laborious to do manually. All your website did was facilitate playing the game, which GW should appreciate. At the very least they could’ve shown a willingness to work with you on a better product which they could sell. I would happy pay money for a list builder like this that was dutifully maintained and regularly updated.

    And, if GW had their stamp on it, you could also include the special rules and weapon stats in the list, which would be great (and what the AB40K guys have been doing for literally years).

    All in, this is a stupid move for GW and they’re missing out on a great opportunity here for making some money.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. John says:

    Such bullsh*t, GW’s community tactics are bullish to put it nicely.

    Like

  7. I think the trick here is to build a list builder that DOESN’T use any of their logos, artwork, or the like. For example Army Builder gets away with this because it’s JUST lists. No artwork and no pictures, just number crunching data. it’s important to put up plenty of disclaimers too, that this product is not endorsed by GW in any way, etc.

    But right now you’re probably feeling a little nervous so DON’T do anything you aren’t comfortable with.

    That being said, it was a great list builder and I applaud you it’s simplicity and well thought out design. Give yourself a few weeks to recover and then you’ll be thinking more clearly about what to do next, if anything.

    Like

  8. David Morris says:

    Just thinking about it, how about doing this for each of their points to meet their requirements:

    GW artwork (featured in the background of your website)
    – Remove all Artwork

    Photographs of GW’s painted miniatures (taken from the GW web store)
    – Remove the photo’s

    Legion logos/ iconography
    – Remove these

    Army points and stats for 40K units
    – Leave only Power level AND leave the stats (seeing how the stats are on free pdfs they provide….)

    The Warhammer 40,000 logo
    – Remove this

    Then re-launch the website. The only thing that you wouldn’t be complying with then is the stats, however seeing as THEY provide the stats via free pdf’s, I don’t see how this can be a problem

    Like

    • What’s the point without the points? Do you think most people will be using such a site without points?

      Like

    • Sabrina Stark says:

      Army points and stats for 40K units
      – Leave only Power level AND leave the stats (seeing how the stats are on free pdfs they provide….)

      The stats are 100% not free……. what free pdfs are you talking about?

      Like

  9. Mathew Beane says:

    Can you make it
    1) without images
    2) without numbers for stats (people have to put them in)

    It just make it generic, or with the ability to “add units” yourself, but not provide the data.

    For images, perhaps one of the 20,000 can make a library of icons for these. Simple icons would even be enough to indicate unit type or whatever.

    If it was generic like this, none of their complaints apply.

    Like

    • Without the pictures, points and stats what is the point? You should just use Battle Scribe. I cannot use the words Aeldari, Drukhari, Necrons even. They are all IP protected. It can be done but no one will use it.

      Like

      • Colin says:

        Listen. Copyright protects your creative work. Find some pictures of minis someone other than GW took. Use art from some other source than GW. They can’t keep you from putting a picture of a space marine up that you drew.

        Long standing precedent is copyright does not protect game rules. They’re not creative. Points values are clearly game rules.

        If you don’t want to piss off GW for whatever reason, fine. But they’re a giant company known for an extremely aggressive approach to their IP, and as a British company, when in Britain, they’re going to have pretty favorable laws. But in the US, things are a bit different. The 1st amendment, fair use, etc.

        Don’t be scared off by some C&D. Yes, if they sued you, it could be potentially expensive if you lost. But who has more to lose? If you make the changes, and tell them what you’re doing is using transformative artwork, using their assets under fair use, and only republishing game rules, you’re not going to lose, and they’re going to be screwed because now there is a case they lost.

        Read this: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-design-and-copyright-trademarks-a

        And consider not totally abandoning things.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Hey Colin. I’m from Bulgaria

        Like

    • Legacy40k says:

      That’s already available here: https://www.google.ca/intl/en-GB/sheets/about/

      Doesn’t break any include any Images, or stats or names. You just add that information yourself.

      Like

  10. Bruce says:

    That’s a real shame man, you clearly put a lot of hard work and effort in to this builder.
    For what its worth, you made the transitional period from 7th ed to 8th edition much much easier for thousands of player, so please don’t feel like all your hard work was for nothing.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Patrick says:

    Could we do something on change.org? (As i’m not english i hope some english guy could do this).
    Your web site was fantastic! We could do list in minutes, print stat (wich is verry useful when your game has changed). We need some thing like this to help with all the new things to learn.

    And using it to build our list doesn’t prevent us to buy the books….

    I thought it was the “NEW GW” 😥

    Like

  12. daniele says:

    Gw should pay you a lot of money for your builder and put it on Warhammer Community…. it is far the best builder they ever dream to have… and I really don’t understand why they’re block you and not Battlescribe (where basically with it you can play without buying a single book of warhammer 😉 )

    Like

    • They cannot touch BattleScribe because that is just a site without the data packages and you download those on your own. This is very hard to do with a website. Very easy with an app.

      Like

  13. Wes says:

    I already tossed an email and posted it’s contents regarding this situation to GW and their community FB page, and I hate using facebook so that’s something.

    It’s an overly aggressive legal move against a tool that only helped, not hurt, GW proper.

    No one will use this if you just use power. What made your builder great was it had all the model’s stats and an image so you could easily see what’s what.

    Hold firm for now, just wait for GW to contact you again.

    Like

    • Thanks Wes, that means a lot. I’m keeping the data on my computer. I would gladly give it to them if they want it and want to support it.

      Like

      • Wes says:

        I tossed you an email with the contents of what I sent off. Hopefully it will be of some assistance. Your army roster tool made my life easier as a Tournament Organizer, why GW would wish to make things more difficult for it’s customer base is beyond me.

        Like

  14. ApplePunch says:

    I just finished sending an email to GW about my thoughts on this. I am really disappointed in this because I think the ability to see all the army options would help their sales. I had an order all queued up because I discovered a unit on here I didn’t know about. However, due to IP laws they might not have had much of a choice. I’m not sure about laws in the UK, but for some copyright law in the US if you don’t actively try to protect your IP (such as using C&D orders) you lose the legal right to defend it in the future if something serious threatens it. It’s a really annoying aspect of the law, but extremely important for companies who rely a great deal on their brand recognition.

    I genuinely hope that GW sees the value of what you created here, as it assisted me a lot in getting more into actually playing the game. Maybe an official endorsement is in the works, who knows, but thanks for all your hard work.

    Like

  15. Allie says:

    General heads up, I put a comment on their 40k page as a way to give them a quick message of disappointment before actually sitting down to write an entire email, and they are hiding a lot of the comments about the list builder. So sorry to hear about the website. It definitely got me into the hobby a lot easier and made me more interested in playing pick up games than anything GW ever did.

    Like

    • Kjolnir says:

      “New GW” indeed.

      Really looks to me like they’re using copyright laws to protect what they fear is an inferior product.

      Like

  16. Wes says:

    People just really need to send emails, post on their community facebook and actually call their customer support line regarding the issue. If you sit back and wait, nothing will happen.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Ramen says:

    Games Workshop are currently building an app (Web and app stores) and they intend to charge a fee for the stats and points.

    This is inevitable.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Petit flacheur says:

    Email sended and i asked to all the gaming club to do the same

    You did an awesome job… even if it stay dead; thanks a lot

    Like

  19. J.D. says:

    GW should be thankful for fans and enthusiasts that devote their own time and energies into doing something that helps to promote their products and games, even though those fans ask for nothing in return because they do it out of their passion and devotion for the game and a desire to help out fellow players.
    But since they didn’t do it first or make a buck or two from it , they feel its a threat and they turn to their legal department to cover up their lack of foresight.
    My deepest apologies, but don’t let this BS on their part keep you down because your intentions were good and done out of a passion for the game, and not to intentionally infringe upon their IP for financial gains.
    Best of luck in your future endeavors.

    Liked by 1 person

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